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	<title>Comments on: Quiz 2.4.1: On being heard but not seen</title>
	<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/</link>
	<description>Seeking Best Accessibility Practices</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4</generator>

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		<title>by: brothercake</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-182</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-182</guid>
					<description>JAWS 4.5 on Win XP can read none-displayed content, but JAWS 5 doesn't, and neither does 4.5 on Win 2k (iirc)

Essentially none-displayed content is neither guaranteed to be accessible, nor guaranteed not to be .. so it's best not to use it at all, except for things that are generated from events that only a mouse-user would generate (such as onmousedown - assuming it's safe to assume that a screenreader-user is using a keyboard, not a mouse or other tracking device ...?)

To the question I'd say C, but I agree with Georg - offleft "em" positioning sometimes causes horizontal scrollbars, in Safari and Opera; I generally go with "position:absolute;left:-10000px;" and confirmed that that works in all modern (5+)browsers, JAWS 4.5, 5 and HPR 3

I've never seen any evidence that SE ratings are affect by offleft positioning - but if it is true - it's their problem; if SE's are doing this then they're broken and will have to stop it - I'm not gonna drop a useful accessible technique to suit their   relevance-filtering problems.  SE optimisation is a vicious circle anyway ... but that's another story ;)

Anyway.. it isn't just display and overflow that's a problem - any of "display:none", "visibility:hidden", "overflow" or "clip" will make the element (or the affected region) inaccessible to most browser-based readers.  And I actually *don't* think that's wrong - screen readers are *screen* readers, they're not aural or speech browsers - I think it's right that they should read essentially what you would see.

But do be careful with what content is hidden using this technique.  Skip links we're talking about elsewhere, but I also don't like to hide the text in FIR constructs either - the "images off / css on" situation is real, not to be dismissed as exreme minority (and even it is - numbers are beside the point ;))

But there are many things where it's useful - I use it a lot for "meta headings" - things like an H2 "Site navigation" just before the navbar list - where it's useful to a serial browser because it aids spatial comprehension, but arguably superfluous for graphical browsers, who can tell what it is by looking at it.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JAWS 4.5 on Win XP can read none-displayed content, but JAWS 5 doesn&#8217;t, and neither does 4.5 on Win 2k (iirc)</p>
<p>Essentially none-displayed content is neither guaranteed to be accessible, nor guaranteed not to be .. so it&#8217;s best not to use it at all, except for things that are generated from events that only a mouse-user would generate (such as onmousedown - assuming it&#8217;s safe to assume that a screenreader-user is using a keyboard, not a mouse or other tracking device &#8230;?)</p>
<p>To the question I&#8217;d say C, but I agree with Georg - offleft &#8220;em&#8221; positioning sometimes causes horizontal scrollbars, in Safari and Opera; I generally go with &#8220;position:absolute;left:-10000px;&#8221; and confirmed that that works in all modern (5+)browsers, JAWS 4.5, 5 and HPR 3</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never seen any evidence that SE ratings are affect by offleft positioning - but if it is true - it&#8217;s their problem; if SE&#8217;s are doing this then they&#8217;re broken and will have to stop it - I&#8217;m not gonna drop a useful accessible technique to suit their   relevance-filtering problems.  SE optimisation is a vicious circle anyway &#8230; but that&#8217;s another story ;)</p>
<p>Anyway.. it isn&#8217;t just display and overflow that&#8217;s a problem - any of &#8220;display:none&#8221;, &#8220;visibility:hidden&#8221;, &#8220;overflow&#8221; or &#8220;clip&#8221; will make the element (or the affected region) inaccessible to most browser-based readers.  And I actually *don&#8217;t* think that&#8217;s wrong - screen readers are *screen* readers, they&#8217;re not aural or speech browsers - I think it&#8217;s right that they should read essentially what you would see.</p>
<p>But do be careful with what content is hidden using this technique.  Skip links we&#8217;re talking about elsewhere, but I also don&#8217;t like to hide the text in FIR constructs either - the &#8220;images off / css on&#8221; situation is real, not to be dismissed as exreme minority (and even it is - numbers are beside the point ;))</p>
<p>But there are many things where it&#8217;s useful - I use it a lot for &#8220;meta headings&#8221; - things like an H2 &#8220;Site navigation&#8221; just before the navbar list - where it&#8217;s useful to a serial browser because it aids spatial comprehension, but arguably superfluous for graphical browsers, who can tell what it is by looking at it.
</p>
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		<title>by: Adrian Higginbotham</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-139</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-139</guid>
					<description>Bryce - that bug has been fixed in JFW 6, which is theoreticly positive but causing short term confusion as the bug which was once a feature is no longer a feature.  I can no longer see (hear) some previously visible (audible) skipnavs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryce - that bug has been fixed in JFW 6, which is theoreticly positive but causing short term confusion as the bug which was once a feature is no longer a feature.  I can no longer see (hear) some previously visible (audible) skipnavs.
</p>
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		<title>by: John Yuda</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-138</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2005 02:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-138</guid>
					<description>The z-index approach sounds interesting, but I've had a lot of trouble getting z-index to behave correctly -- especially in the 5.x versions of IE.

It sounds like it's worth experimentation, though. Or has somebody already looked into it?

(In other news, Bob, can we get a "preview" option for our comments? I'd like to be able to proof mine outside of the textarea. Thanks.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The z-index approach sounds interesting, but I&#8217;ve had a lot of trouble getting z-index to behave correctly &#8212; especially in the 5.x versions of IE.</p>
<p>It sounds like it&#8217;s worth experimentation, though. Or has somebody already looked into it?</p>
<p>(In other news, Bob, can we get a &#8220;preview&#8221; option for our comments? I&#8217;d like to be able to proof mine outside of the textarea. Thanks.)
</p>
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		<title>by: Bryce</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-137</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-137</guid>
					<description>Another point about JAWS rendering display:none, it does so contrary to standards.  In other words, it's a bug that's being used as a feature. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another point about JAWS rendering display:none, it does so contrary to standards.  In other words, it&#8217;s a bug that&#8217;s being used as a feature. :)
</p>
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		<title>by: Christian</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-135</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-135</guid>
					<description>What about z-indexing? I'm not sure, just throwing it out there to see what you all think. Give it a z-index: -10 (or something) so web browsers don't see it, I am assuming a screen reader would still see it.

Let me know what you think :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about z-indexing? I&#8217;m not sure, just throwing it out there to see what you all think. Give it a z-index: -10 (or something) so web browsers don&#8217;t see it, I am assuming a screen reader would still see it.</p>
<p>Let me know what you think :)
</p>
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		<title>by: Bob Easton</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-133</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-133</guid>
					<description>Becky,

Choice A does have issues.  Those issues are dependent on how the display:none is delivered.  For example, JAWS will obey display:none if  it is inline or part of a LINKed style sheet, but will not obey it if it is part of an IMPORTed style sheet.

Two or three questions from now, we will explore all the possibilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Becky,</p>
<p>Choice A does have issues.  Those issues are dependent on how the display:none is delivered.  For example, JAWS will obey display:none if  it is inline or part of a LINKed style sheet, but will not obey it if it is part of an IMPORTed style sheet.</p>
<p>Two or three questions from now, we will explore all the possibilities.
</p>
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		<title>by: Arve</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-132</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2005 16:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-132</guid>
					<description>But, instead of writing bloated, unclear CSS, isn't there any means of actually making these older screen readers ignore the CSS altogether?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But, instead of writing bloated, unclear CSS, isn&#8217;t there any means of actually making these older screen readers ignore the CSS altogether?
</p>
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		<title>by: Becky</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-131</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2005 15:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-131</guid>
					<description>These comments are helpful - I appreciate the link to the WebAIM article.  While most people felt that A had issues, I have found that it works in JAWS 4.51, WindowEyes 4.5 sp3 and HPR 3.04 when used with form labels.   
I also have a question about item C - are there international issues with moving the label of to the left?  Do I have to create a new style sheet for right to left languages?  Perhaps this is a moot point if you use the technique from WebAIM but I am curious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These comments are helpful - I appreciate the link to the WebAIM article.  While most people felt that A had issues, I have found that it works in JAWS 4.51, WindowEyes 4.5 sp3 and HPR 3.04 when used with form labels.<br />
I also have a question about item C - are there international issues with moving the label of to the left?  Do I have to create a new style sheet for right to left languages?  Perhaps this is a moot point if you use the technique from WebAIM but I am curious.
</p>
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		<title>by: Manisha</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-130</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2005 06:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-130</guid>
					<description>Google recently took away WordPress' PR8 for a couple of days because they hosted a ton of spammy articles (written for AdSense revenues) on their site that were linked to from their homepage via links that were hidden through CSS. 
&lt;a href="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&#38;ie=utf-8&#38;oe=utf-8&#38;q=wordpress+spam" rel="nofollow"&gt;WordPress fiasco&lt;/a&gt;

This was not detected automatically by Google's algo. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Google recently took away WordPress&#8217; PR8 for a couple of days because they hosted a ton of spammy articles (written for AdSense revenues) on their site that were linked to from their homepage via links that were hidden through CSS.<br />
<a href="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&amp;ie=utf-8&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;q=wordpress+spam" rel="nofollow">WordPress fiasco</a></p>
<p>This was not detected automatically by Google&#8217;s algo.
</p>
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		<title>by: Philippe</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-129</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2005 04:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/03/quiz-241-on-being-heard-but-not-seen/#comment-129</guid>
					<description>Bob Easton said about Google and off-screen text
&lt;blockquote&gt;Fact, rumor, or paranoia?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I haven't seen any evidence about Google spidering my stylesheets. Possibly, if someone complains, then Google will look it up manually.

That said, I've gone for option C for a long while, adding an option to render the text visible to keyboard users (skip links using :focus). Using B sounds good as well, although some browsers (that one) have a bit of a problem with the overflow:hidden. Nothing that can't be worked around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Easton said about Google and off-screen text</p>
<blockquote><p>Fact, rumor, or paranoia?</p></blockquote>
<p>I haven&#8217;t seen any evidence about Google spidering my stylesheets. Possibly, if someone complains, then Google will look it up manually.</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;ve gone for option C for a long while, adding an option to render the text visible to keyboard users (skip links using :focus). Using B sounds good as well, although some browsers (that one) have a bit of a problem with the overflow:hidden. Nothing that can&#8217;t be worked around.
</p>
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