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	<title>Comments on: Quiz 5.2.14: Speaking form labels - 2</title>
	<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/</link>
	<description>Seeking Best Accessibility Practices</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 06:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Bob Easton</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-577</link>
		<author>Bob Easton</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-577</guid>
					<description>HPR 3.04

In straight through reading mode, HPR does NOT speak the title attributes on the form fields.  In controls reading mode, it DOES speak the title attributes on the form fields.

In both modes, it DOES speak the title attribute on the image.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HPR 3.04</p>
<p>In straight through reading mode, HPR does NOT speak the title attributes on the form fields.  In controls reading mode, it DOES speak the title attributes on the form fields.</p>
<p>In both modes, it DOES speak the title attribute on the image.</p>
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		<title>By: Anup Shah</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-579</link>
		<author>Anup Shah</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-579</guid>
					<description>To hide the form label (agree, I would tend to disagree with the premise), why not use the off-top technique? This technique is useful for 'hiding' anything, but ensuring screen readers will still read it. It is useful for headings that can be hidden away for visual purposes, but are useful for other users.

See the following for the off-top technique
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/articles/hiddentext

Note they mention somewhere that it has a few advantages over the 'off-left' technique.

Disable CSS on the tesco.com home page to see it in action by the navigation stuff at the top (the home page doesn't technically validate last time I checked, but they are getting better!) http://www.tesco.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To hide the form label (agree, I would tend to disagree with the premise), why not use the off-top technique? This technique is useful for &#8216;hiding&#8217; anything, but ensuring screen readers will still read it. It is useful for headings that can be hidden away for visual purposes, but are useful for other users.</p>
<p>See the following for the off-top technique<br />
<a href="http://www.webaim.org/techniques/articles/hiddentext" rel="nofollow">http://www.webaim.org/techniques/articles/hiddentext</a></p>
<p>Note they mention somewhere that it has a few advantages over the &#8216;off-left&#8217; technique.</p>
<p>Disable CSS on the tesco.com home page to see it in action by the navigation stuff at the top (the home page doesn&#8217;t technically validate last time I checked, but they are getting better!) <a href="http://www.tesco.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.tesco.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bob Easton</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-580</link>
		<author>Bob Easton</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-580</guid>
					<description>Anup, You're right.  There are lots of other ways to hide the label, and we've covered them in earlier testing.  Off top and off left will work very well.

The point of these tests was to draw attention to the inconsistencies in how screen readers behave with certain attributes.  They will not speak certain display:none elements, but will speak other display:none elements.  They will not speak titles in some cases, but will speak them in other.  How are developers to know, understand, or remember the inconsistencies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anup, You&#8217;re right.  There are lots of other ways to hide the label, and we&#8217;ve covered them in earlier testing.  Off top and off left will work very well.</p>
<p>The point of these tests was to draw attention to the inconsistencies in how screen readers behave with certain attributes.  They will not speak certain display:none elements, but will speak other display:none elements.  They will not speak titles in some cases, but will speak them in other.  How are developers to know, understand, or remember the inconsistencies?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Easton</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-581</link>
		<author>Bob Easton</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2005 20:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-581</guid>
					<description>Updated test case with HPR 3.04.

When in straight through reading mode, HPR does not speak the titles on the select controls.  Reading the form in controls reading mode DOES speak the titles on the select controls.

For the image, the ALT text is read if it exists and the title is not.  When the ALT is missing and title exists, the title is read.

Listen to &lt;a href="http://access-matters.com/recordings/tc5-2-14-hpr-st.mp3"&gt;a recording of straight through reading mode&lt;/a&gt;.
Listen to &lt;a href="http://access-matters.com/recordings/tc5-2-14-hpr-cm.mp3"&gt;a recording of controls reading mode&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Updated test case with HPR 3.04.</p>
<p>When in straight through reading mode, HPR does not speak the titles on the select controls.  Reading the form in controls reading mode DOES speak the titles on the select controls.</p>
<p>For the image, the ALT text is read if it exists and the title is not.  When the ALT is missing and title exists, the title is read.</p>
<p>Listen to <a href="http://access-matters.com/recordings/tc5-2-14-hpr-st.mp3">a recording of straight through reading mode</a>.<br />
Listen to <a href="http://access-matters.com/recordings/tc5-2-14-hpr-cm.mp3">a recording of controls reading mode</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Easton</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-582</link>
		<author>Bob Easton</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-582</guid>
					<description>JAWS 6.1 with IE 6

Straight through reading mode and form reading mode both speak the titles for the select controls. 

The title for the image is not spoken when ALT text is available for the image.  When no ALT text is available the title is spoken.

Listen to &lt;a href="http://access-matters.com/recordings/tc5-2-14-jaws.mp3"&gt;a recording&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JAWS 6.1 with IE 6</p>
<p>Straight through reading mode and form reading mode both speak the titles for the select controls. </p>
<p>The title for the image is not spoken when ALT text is available for the image.  When no ALT text is available the title is spoken.</p>
<p>Listen to <a href="http://access-matters.com/recordings/tc5-2-14-jaws.mp3">a recording</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Easton</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-583</link>
		<author>Bob Easton</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-583</guid>
					<description>Window Eyes 5.0 with IE 6

Straight through reading mode and form reading mode both speak the titles for select controls.

The title text for the image IS spoken even when ALT text also exists. This is different than either HPR or JAWS. They both give preference to the ALT text.

Listen to &lt;a href="http://access-matters.com/recordings/tc5-2-14-we.mp3"&gt;a recording&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Window Eyes 5.0 with IE 6</p>
<p>Straight through reading mode and form reading mode both speak the titles for select controls.</p>
<p>The title text for the image IS spoken even when ALT text also exists. This is different than either HPR or JAWS. They both give preference to the ALT text.</p>
<p>Listen to <a href="http://access-matters.com/recordings/tc5-2-14-we.mp3">a recording</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Anup Shah</title>
		<link>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-584</link>
		<author>Anup Shah</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2005 12:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.access-matters.com/2005/09/01/quiz-5214-speaking-form-labels-2/#comment-584</guid>
					<description>Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. Fair enough. I guess my comment was a bit ahead of the conclusions then, as a sort of 'given all these problems with screen readers, this is one way you can do it' type of answer.

Anup</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob,</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification. Fair enough. I guess my comment was a bit ahead of the conclusions then, as a sort of &#8216;given all these problems with screen readers, this is one way you can do it&#8217; type of answer.</p>
<p>Anup</p>
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